Get yourself banned. What a solid plan.

The tears in this thread a delicious

I love how everyone is like 'this is so bad for our ISK income that we're just not going to use it in our space and ban it'. Well guess what, you don't get to decide if the enemy uses it in your space, which is the entire point of these things.

Fleet roles in to a highly populated ratting space, deploys ESS, cuts everyone's income by 20%, forces the owners of the system to do something about it, PVP happens.

This thing will be used more to force your enemy's hand and less to steal actual ISK, although that would be a nice bonus.

Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.

Right, so CCP seems to be determined to use this piece of scrap. So here's a new idea, fresh from my mind meats (and totally crossposted from a post I made elsewhere).

CCP has it the wrong way around. This is a perfect highsec thing. Here's what it'll do (if done properly) for highsec:

1) It'll give missioners/ratters/etc a little bonus for working from one system
2) It'll give ebil pirates a goal for highsec
3) It'll give carebears a delicious honeypot to guard all day long.

to your 2nd point: Link the "Take All" button to a hacking game that is difficult enough to be unfeasible in an interceptor.
-áGP¬ People have been longing to use hacking devices on non-NPC structures for ages.
-áGP¬ It has been suggested many times in this thread
-áGP¬ It just feels logical

It-¦s not going to happen in 1.1, but might in the future. Possibly also if we do meta-versions later that change security level restrictions and/or payout values.

I tend to avoid answering posts using inflammatory phrasing, but I actually think your signature answers your question pretty well.

If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it-¦s up to you. Don-¦t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It-¦s only a nerf if you choose it to be.

It relies on bad posting by ccp devs, however. Which gradually will ground to a stop, sadly.

Other than that, it is purely an extra griefing tool. But I guess that's what the Grrr Goonies want...

Let me know when the people Burn Jita over this... Ill be there.

The only useful thing I can see for this structure, if it were to be implemented as it's currently proposed (because let's face it, it probably will be), is that it will effectively become the 'Cyno Trap, V2' and used offensively.

Warp to hostile ratting system, anchor structure inside of an anchoring T2 Large Mobile Warp Disruptor and begin farming angry ratters. This is obviously the best case scenario, as most ratters will probably just wait you out and go back to business as usual once you're gone- but there's always those one or two special snowflakes in every constellation that actually feel like they have some divine right to whichever system they happen to be in, and will needless fling comedy fit ships at you.

I too tackle things with hopes and dreams.

Great. That means the 5% blanket nerf to incomes can be outright removed since it doesn't really serve any purpose.

a) You won't be getting more fights, because no one will be using them.

b) A fully upgraded -1.0 sec system supports ~5 people, any more and you lose a lot of income due to site spawn rates / occupancy. You'll lose more than 5% trying to group up to recoup the 5% ... so, no one will do this.

Oh well, i doesn't really matter if a few risk avers renters leave the null sec.

Only time will tell if these things will be used or not.

DonGÇÿt worry, people actually DO get this. For example IGÇÿve been around in nullsec for years, and I know exactly how nullbears behave when confronted with roaming gangs.

ESS is meant to be an incentive to actually fight. Your argument goes: GÇPNullbears donGÇÿt fight, they dock upGÇ£, CCPs answer is: GÇPWe give nullbears a better reason to fight, there will be an incentiveGÇ£. So the only question that remains is: how large should this incentive be? And how does the mechanic work exactly.

ESS doesnGÇÿt require you to fight in your PvE fit. Not at all. PvE ratters should be able to dock / POS up and switch to suitable combat ships, maybe even call for reinforcements from nearby systems. (ThatGÇÿs one of my main concern with the current mechanic of the ESS. A fixed timer doesnGÇÿt cut it. Depending on the situation it is either too short or too long. Right now itGÇÿs too short. ESS can be robbed long before the defenders are able to react. Therefore the GÇPtake allGÇ£ option should be a payment over time, not a single payment after a timer. For example the attacker could get one tag for every x seconds that heGÇÿs willing to wait at the ESS module.)

No. The idea behind ESS isnGÇÿt flawed at all. It is a good idea, but the proposed mechanism seems to be flawed in several ways.

IGÇÿve got news for you: NULL SECURITY SPACE is not designed for undisturbed ratting. I donGÇÿt care that inhabitants want to rat in peace. Not at all :-) Your complaint is in no way different from hisec carebears demanding an end of ganking, war decs and other activies disturbing their mission running and mining.

I see it different. In the current state of nullsec, a roaming gang of 5-20 people canGÇÿt do **** to provoke a fight. Yes, itGÇÿs possible to gank somebody, and if youGÇÿre really, really lucky you find a gang of locals willing to fight. But this will happen once in like five roamings. At least this is my experience from small scale roamings, twice or three times weekly, in different parts of the nullsec regions.

The sad truth is: if a smallscale roaming gang enters nullsec, all ratters dock up, and all other inhabitants donGÇÿt care at all.

It is simply a necessity that roaming gangs are able to do SOMETHING that hurts the local inhabitants. Right now they are mostly ignored, and for good reasons.

The idea behind ESS GÇô at least as I understand it GÇô is to give nullsec ratters a new deployable that potentially increases their income, but with a price. A part of their income will be at risk. CCPs job is to balance it properly. Risk vs reward.

Whenever there is even a small amount of extra profit, some people are willing to risk more in order to get it. Sometimes they are aware of the risk, sometimes not. ThatGÇÿs only natural. CCPs job is to balance it such that enough people are willing to take this risk.

Therefore we should only talk about the right balance, and the exact mechanics of the module, not if it should exist at all. There has to be some kind of ESS!

And a TCU doesnGÇÿt cut it, and itGÇÿs quite obvious. No small or mid scale roaming gang could ever do anything to harm a TCU.

Perhaps your right... but solving this is very simple: Increase the reward given by the ESS. If it had 100m in the rat bounty pool, I bet more people would step up. Additionally, ensure that the locals have enough time to actually respond. I'd like to see about 10 minutes before the isk-tag drops, thereby allowing them time to pull in friends nearby, to ship up, and to come out swinging.

Look, no one is going to deploy this even if the potential bonus to bounties was 200%. Think about it this way:

1. What is to stop someone from your alliance with a 1 day old alt from robbing the ESS?

2. What is to stop someone from your alliance from logging on a neutral alt they have logged off in system and robbing the ESS?

These are two obvious ways to exploit this deployable/mechanic to the point that no ratter is going to agree to use these no matter what the potential bonus is. If i log on to rat and see one of these in system the first thing I will do is blow it up. Me blowing up someone's deployable = alliance drama. The 1 day old alts robbing the ESS = alliance drama. Alliance leaders deal with enough drama already and will just ban the use of these.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Maybe if you have never lived in or don't understand nullsec you should stop posting in this thread?

1.) It tells you who robbed the ESS. You take care of it the same way you would an AWOXer.

2.) It tells you when yor ESS is being robbed. You take care of it the same way you would a neutral (assuming CCP increases the access timer to something reasonable).

p.s. Drama is a part of EvE. It basically creates conflict and content. You'll cope with it the same way you cope with your alliance mates not delivering your courier package, or AWOXing you, or ...

I don't give a rats ass about the isk it drops. I want the locals to form up and fight.

In the current environment, if I roll into the area with 3 thorax, a sabre, and 2 inties, the locals have no reason what so ever to undock or leave their POS. The only conflict we can instigate when raiding their territory is catching a ratter, and that's why small gang PvP is leaving nullsec.

If the ESS is NOT deployed by the local inhabitants, it won't change anything in game. No harm, no foul.

I was asking from a lore perspective, given that the dev blog saw fit to justify their existence with lore stuff.

This is a game design problem... and CCP needs to address it pronto. Still, most high-value systems are clumped together. As such, while there may be 2-3 in a single system, they should be able to form up by utilizing neighbor ratters too.

A good system would have baseline rewards same as they are now, with the potential for significantly increased rewards, yet also the potential to be disrupted below what they are now by enemies.

The proposed ESS has baseline rewards less than what they are now, with almost zero potential for even slightly increased rewards, with almost no potential to be disrupted below what it is now.

It has nothing to do with ratters being cowards. Not wanting to lose isk when you're doing an activity for the purpose of getting isk isn't cowardly, it's pragmatic.

So it is ok to have one fo these collect bounties in a highsec system, but not in a nullsec system? That's hypocritical to ssay the least. (note: I actually would LOVE to see these implementable in lowsec and highsec too).

Why do you dock up and stop ratting when neutrals come in system? More specifically, why don't you form up into PvP ships and blap them out of system?

The answer is pretty simple:
1.) You are attempting to make isk, and doing this hinders your isk making.
2.) You don't want to risk ships.
3.) The locals (especially small gangs) really can't harm you and yours in any manner what-so-ever.

So, you blueball them, they move on, and you then continue to rat and make isk.

Do you really think this is good game design? That everything is peachy-king?

Let us suppose that we have a system that can support 4 ishtars. That's really pushing most single systems, but lets go with it. We will let each tick give +2% and see what happens...Its only about an HOUR and a HALF of uninterrupted ratting, with a total of 4 HOURS to pay for the 'upgrade'. None of these considerations take into account the cost/logistics of getting the upgrade into nullsec to begin with.

If you have to clear the cache anytime during ramp up and reset, then the nightmare starts all over again. Even if the ESS lasts long enough to pay for itself without getting blapped, a couple of people are going to have to agree to work together for 4 HOURS every time they opt for PVE to see a 3mil/isk/hr 'bonus'. This is nuts. Its rubbish.

I'm really hoping that the lack of any more replies from CCP means they're having internal meetings about what to do with the ESS.
Though sorry to say my belief is more on the lines of the CCP I have come to know which is them sticking their heads in the sand and hoping the issue (angry players) goes away. Sorry CCP but that is your normal MO.

Anyone from CCP willing to face the mob and post what the plans for the ESS are, will our feedback be taken seriously and in full or should we just shut up and HTFU before moving our assets to Osmon for SOE L4's?

Untill HED-GP last night I was trying really hard to find some positive things about the new deployables and new expansions in general. However after jumping in 10 corp dreads that basicly got stuck in the node and returned home as insurance pay outs without any control over them whatsoever, I gave up on trying to be positive about Rubicon 1.1 or even the next expansion. I can only guess what happened to the other 900 dreads that got jumped in.

I pay 75 euros / month for my 5 accounts. Use my money to improve your game or lose it altogether. We are moving towards a second Incarna here.

• Last night made painfully clear that your servers cannot handle current SOV mechanics.
• Stop devoting resources to adding small content like your new deployable that really no one is interested in until the basics are sound.
• Spend resources on fixing a game mechanic that ruined the night for 4000 active accounts that were directly involved in what was supposed to be the biggest battle in EvE history.
• Create an expansion that is worth waiting for. I rather have you guys work on an expansion for 2 years than making these 6 month deadlines with crappy stuff. Fix the core.

So:

Scrap the ESS, do not waste resources on trying to fix it. And for the love of EvE do not release this piece of junk.

Devote your resources to this:

• Fix SOV mechanics. Either you remove the incentive for us to put 4.000 people with drone assist doctrines in 1 system, or fix the code/server to allow 10.000 of us.
• Fix corp / alliance / coalition management.
• When you have done this, fix the HORRENDOUS POS code that we have been screaming for even longer.

Cheers

Yeah, you're kinda fighting against windmills here.

First of all: donGÇÿt you see that itGÇÿs all the more seducing to use this module, the more nullsec alliances are trying to boycott it? Because if nobody BUT ME uses it, the better for me! Cause IGÇÿm earning additional LP now, and you donGÇÿt.

Second, the LP payout itself seems to be quite okay. Assuming a nullbear now earns 30m ISK for each hour ratting, after the change the following will happen:

NO ESS DEPLOYED
Direkt ISK income nerfed to 28.5m ISK.
No additional benefits or frills.

ESS DEPLOYED
Direkt ISK income lowered to 24m ISK.
Additional 3,600 to 4,800 LP directly to LP wallet.
6-7.5m ISK go into ESS.

Given current navy LP values (c. 800 ISK/LP) this sums up to c. 32.9m to 35.3m, depending on how long the ESS has been deployed and not cashed out. This is a potential buff of 9.7 to 17.7 percent to nullbear income.

But most important of all: this ratter will potentially earn 25% more than a ratter who doesn't deploy an ESS. ThatGÇÿs kind of a motivation :D

Why have you maintained the 5% nerf to bounties even when it was demonstrated that it was unnecessary and that your reasons for doing so were utterly false?

Saying "we're going to take away 5% of your bounties to force you to use this new module" is not sandbox at all. It's not player-driven content. It's an artificially forced game mechanic.

I approve of this idea.

How about another carrot, such as whilst an ESS is active in a system then one of its lowest class cosmic anomalies will instead respawn as one of the highest class allowed for that system and military index?

If you want a desirable carrot, make the ESS close the gap between crappy nullsec truesec and the good systems.

Make it *More* beneficial to use this item in these less desirable systems with greater payouts or better spawns or something.

Well, I put my money where my mouth is, and I've moved six characters into a wormhole. If I'm going to get shot at I might as well get paid for it instead of being pushed further into space poverty by the oppressive reactionaries working for CCP.

Just to spell out the maths.

Start point. No ESS. 95% today.
ESS. Assuming 1k/lp. Lower than it is currently, lets not doom & gloom crazy, because as price of LP drops from supply, more people will buy the now cheaper items, keeping price partly modulated. So LP won't crash.
80% ISK + 15% LP. 95%. NO OVERALL LOSS EVEN IF YOU GET NOTHING FROM THE ESS.

Upgraded ESS.
80% ISK + 20% LP LP. 100%. GAIN ABOVE NO ESS ALREADY.

Upgraded ESS + Payout
80% ISK + 25% ISK + 20% LP. 125%. MASSIVE PAYOUT GAIN.

So, Deploying the ESS is actually very low risk now. You stand to loose the initial 30 Million if you don't get any upgrade ticks done before it gets stolen from & blown up. But unless LP crashes badly (Since it's actually above 1k for most LP anyway, so can drop a bit before making 1k an invalid number) you make the lost 15% isk back in LP, if not quite as convenient. And if you actually manage to upgrade it and get the payout from the ESS when hostiles come through or you are simply done ratting, you make a bucket load of profit.

It's looking good now.

LowSec stations and hauling alts, like most people with -10.
Although I doubt you will be -10 long if you grind any meaningful amount of LP this way.

Well if you go back and read my previous posts I was actually asking CCP if we can have the LP stores enabled in our own outposts so we can claim our goodies there.
I think it's stupid needing to go back to Empire to redeem something we made in NullSec, but you were posting as it the -10 was crippling not that it was just annoying needing to head back to Empire to do something.

Initially when CCP SoniClover made the LP post I thought CCP had dropped all the stupid ISK games from this module and made it a gamble on LP, but the lP is just something to try and make it worth using, which it still isn't.

We have a 5% bounties nerf because NullSec is making too much ISK then a module which fixes that nerf entirely and even lets you bring in more ISK. The only way this module will have any effect on slowing the flow of ISK from NullSec is if it's so bad no one wants to use it, which... it exactly what its current state is.

This just means CCP might as well have nerfed all bounties in EVE by 5% announced they took steps to negate future inflation and spent all the Development time from this module working on some more positive.

I have made more post in this thread than any other in EVE history, I have been polite and put forth questions and arguments and quite only the only impression I have had is CCP refuse to back down on their "awesome" idea which everyone is trying to point out very constructively wont achieve any of their goals (no one will fight over this).

Predicting right here and now, the ESS will be a failed feature and not receive any updates or support post release (when Super Friends are moved to their next project) and I will go back and point to this very post on my phone when I speak to CCP Devs at fanfest about how the ESS was a failure.

I want to believe in CCP being a great company which understands what their game needs, and maybe I will eat my words after this five year plan is done but right now... five years is a long time to play in a sandbox full of dog poo.

/endrant.

Part of the issue in adding LP stores to Outposts, is which LP store goes in the outpost? NPC stations are affiliated with a single corp, and so are LP.

As for your "no one will use it"... several members of the CFC have already said the iterations to the module have increase the rewards to the point they are absolutely considering using it. You don't have to use it, but I'm fairly certain the latest iteration will be used.

I personally think the ESS access times need to be increased some: 1 Minute to get the share all option, 5 minutes to get the take all option. After that, the module is a great addition to the game!

So i have to explain in detail how this works?
Alliance B has 20 ratting/farming/ano systems whatever you call it where they kill NPCs for bounty.
Alliance A has a fleet ready may it via cyno or Blops, whatever
Alliance A wants to harass farming in the prime time of Alliance B for lets say 2h as strategic goal and with some luck getting a fight.

What does Alliance A do now without an ESS, put up 20 cloak alts in local, see whats going on. If you are smart enough who the **** cares about a cloak alt, sure your farming may be interrupted from time to time but the point is you can not shut down farming at all.

Now the ESS comes into play, same setup, 20 systems, 20 cloak alts in grid with the ESS. Still you can't shut down farming at all but you can annoy the hell out of those farming guys. Either way, you are getting the cash from the ESS or you kill an Interceptor/Frig trying to access the ESS via Blops or you kill XXXX. It does not matter, the ESS is the cherry on top to harass someone else. The farming guys have 3 options.
- Stop farming partially or at all for 2h = mission accomplished (and if they chicken heads as long as there is a cloak alt in system)
- Trying to steal from the ESS after farming and may or may not get caught = mission accomplished
- Forming a fleet to kill alll 20 ESS = mission accomplished

Rinse and repeat that for 2 weeks and i bet Alliance B farming boys are pretty pissed and Alliance B has to deal with it one way or another.

A few points I want to bring up that weren't addressed in the blog:

1.) The ESS needs a means to inhibit it's distribution timer. I tested this last night, and this is what I found:
I can land next to the ESS and immediately hit access and choose take all, starting the 3.5 minute timer to grab the loot or I share all, starting the 30 s timer to share the loot. There are only two ways to stop me: a.) destroy my ship. b.) get me to leave the proximity of the ESS (15 km radius). It would be very nice if a mechanic existed where a player could stop this count-down. I can think of several ways to do it: